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Gensets & Transforme rs
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11-21-2008 08:33 AM
Re: Gensets & Transforme rs
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11-24-2008 06:07 PM
Interesting tropic.
My rules of thumb is that you can magnetic a transformer 1-2 times the size of the generator if you close the generator breaker with voltage on the generator. I work for a company that makes Power management solution and we have another approached to the problem.The problem is the inrush current created by the voltage of the generator. If we for a short wile think out of the box then it is the voltage that is the problem and we have a work around.
We have a special start sequence that directly address this problem.
There are 2 different sequences depending on your type of AVR and the control of it:
Without any control of the AVR.
We will close the breaker on the first priority generator in the system ( there is first up discrimination) then we will start the generator. As the voltage out of the generator start from zero to nominal it will limit the inrush current. The voltage is build up very rapidly as the time constant in the AVR is around 200 mS The ratio here is around 12:1 meaning that you can magnetic a transformer 12 times larger than the generator.
The generator will not see a current here that is larger than 80% of the nominal current.
With A CDVR
As you can use the CDVR on many of your generators, then this AVR gives you the possibility of controlling both the start point of the magnification and the voltage ramp.In this case our system has another approaches. We will start the generator and at 400 RPM close the breaker. At 700 RPM we will start the magnification and there by activation the ramp. With a 4 S ramp we will now be able to magnetic a transformer 18 times bigger than the generator. In theory the ratio can be bigger as a longer ramp should limit the current.
The 18 times is the ratio that we have handled today, so it is not a theoretically number.
At the same time our solution does not involve any high voltage breakers separating the transformers. This is an issue as this breaker cost more than 8 times the price of the generator controller.
For warranty reasons Caterpillar does not allow two generators to be synchronized in this manner, but in Europe where we have been using this function for many years it allows us to magnetize the transformer and at the same time start several generators at the same time. We can in this way have 8-10 generators started, synchronized and be ready for load within 15 S. Right now only with other engines types.
The only reference that I have in USA is the EMG generator for Miami State University (Hospital) where I have made a system with Kohler starting and synchronizing 3 pc. 2.8 Mw MTU engines within 7 seconds.
This system also is able to make Soft start of large Motors (pumps) where we start 4 pc. 1 Mw engines to softstart a 3 Mw pump.
If you want more information you shall be welcome to contact me on SDC@DEIF.COM
Best regards
Søren Dahl Christensen
Product Manager
Engines and Gen-set control
DEIF A/S
DEIF A/S
Plant managemnt Solutions
Technical presales Manager,
Power Technology Diesel
Re: Gensets & Transforme rs
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07-20-2009 02:50 AM
Hello Søren,
You have very good explained the problem and clarify the solution,
Could you please tell me how do you define the ratio ?? when the time constant is around 200 mS and The ratio here is around 12:1 meaning that you can magnetic a transformer 12 times larger than the generator. The generator will not see a current here that is larger than 80% of the nominal current.
Could you please provide me the calculation procedure ?
Thank you in advance,
Best regards,
Wissam HAYEK / Application Engineer
M. Ezzat Jallad & Fils / Caterpillar Dealer6 Sigma Green Belt Certified
Tel : (+961)-9-212077-78-79-80-81 Ext.: 242
Mobile : (+961)-3-817259
Fax : (+961)-9-212073
P.O.BOX 110 208, Postal Code 1107 2020
Riad Solh, Beirut, Lebanon
E-mail : whayek@jallad.com.lb
Re: Gensets & Transforme rs
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07-22-2009 05:47 PM
Hi Vissam
The ratio is defined as Transformer : Generator. So a 12 MW transformer can be magnetized by a 1 MW generator.
The 80% Nominal current relates to the generator.
I am close to write in the “low cost” version of the way we can magnetize an transformer, but I don't mean it in that way. It is just a way of using the tools already provided on the generator.
The AVR normally have a start ramp based on the Hz. So it “slowly” ramps up the voltage during the start. This ramp cannot be controlled and it uses the AVR´s normal regulation.
This regulation has a normal time constant around 200 ms, so it is fast. This is the reason why the current is relative high. Around 80%.
With an AVR where the voltage and ramp can be controlled (like CDVR) it is possible to make a 2-4 s ramp and that lowers the current more.
I don't have any fancy spreadsheet with the math. This type of system was created as a cooperation of our company and a progressive CAT dealer in brazil.
So the data I have is from working sites where we have been experiencing with different setup.
“Nothing like practical experience”
Søren Dahl Christensen
Product Manager
Engines and Gen-set control
DEIF A/S
DEIF A/S
Plant managemnt Solutions
Technical presales Manager,
Power Technology Diesel
Re: Gensets & Transforme rs
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07-23-2009 12:26 AM
Hi Soren,
Thank you very much, your technical information was very clear and unseful,
I have used this method in a project in Lebanon, which has six CAT gensets that feed directly to step-up transformers 400/20k Volt, when we started the gensets without slowly risig the voltage, the gensets have stoped directly, afterthat, we have adjusted the duration, then the problem has been solved,
With kindest regards,
Wissam HAYEK / Application Engineer
M. Ezzat Jallad & Fils / Caterpillar Dealer6 Sigma Green Belt Certified
Tel : (+961)-9-212077-78-79-80-81 Ext.: 242
Mobile : (+961)-3-817259
Fax : (+961)-9-212073
P.O.BOX 110 208, Postal Code 1107 2020
Riad Solh, Beirut, Lebanon
E-mail : whayek@jallad.com.lb
Re: Gensets & Transforme rs
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10-22-2009 01:20 AM
Hi Bryan,
There are 2 applications for transformer energizing..
One is close the fully excited generator to a unenergized transformer.
Two is closing the CB first (called dead bus closing) and then start the generator excitation through the AVR..
The first case is the most challenging application.. For this the transformer inrush current (usually 10-12 times) will have to be matched with the current decrement curves provided in the TMI under generator data.. If we take the data for a 1120 KW 415 V generator from the TMI the max current this unit can provide from the current decrement curve is 15865 amps.. Assuming this to be 12 times the rated current the Max transformer that can be charged by closing the breaker based after full excitation of the generator of 415 v will be 950 KVA..
For the second case we can use the configuration that Soren has explained.. This is called dead bus synchronization... Here you can charge a transformer upto 3 to 4 time the generator size (based on excitation characteristics) by gradual voltage buildup....
Hope this will be useful...
Re: Gensets & Transforme rs
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09-15-2011 09:09 PM
Hi Soren
That was a great post, and I hope has maybe solved a problem that I have.
I have a step up transformer that is 1000 kva 480/2400, I need to start the transformer with no load and check the secondary
voltage.
I have a 300 kw generator that I intend to use to magnetize the transformer and bring to steady state,
if I closed the breaker on the generator prior to starting, hopefully I can beat the inrush, is this correct.
Thanks
Ricky L. Ball,Member
United Electric, LLC
Re: Gensets & Transforme rs
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09-15-2011 10:43 PM
Just ensure the the secondary is open and the transformer is energized on no load and AVR excitation is slowed down a little to allow gradual build up of voltage..
Re: Gensets & Transforme rs
[ Edited ]
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09-19-2011 09:02 PM - edited 09-19-2011 09:03 PM
20 years ago I thought I had a good set of "rules of thumb" for this, however with changes in the prime mover and generator iron, increasing complexity of installed power systems, and tighter voltage and frequency requirements for high tech loads sometimes what worked well for a number of years gets challenged a bit these days.
For smaller units with single phase sensing AVR's (like a VR4 or some of the current LS offerings) with SE excitaiton systems, 1 to 1.5 times gen kVA.
For mid to larger size units with three phase sensing SE excitation systems, 1-2 times kVA.
Mid to large size with PM excitation systems, 2-4 times depending on tail end design, some frame sizes did better than others, some PM's were maginally sized and fell off in output, some units were absolute beasts, like KATO and Baldor oil field specific units.
On older CAT systems units with the card type AVR (VR2 as it was called sometimes) seemed to do better, of course they were usually on prime or continuos rated tail ends with lots of iron and copper. The older VR1 (A1 module type AVR) would sometimes have problems with the harmonic content of the inrush and fall off rapidly, found the same issue with VR3's althought not quite as bad.
We did a number of large power module rental projects over the years and quite a few times had power blocks of 5 units with the first unit on line picking up the GSU, then paralleling the rest. Sometimes it worked great, other times we resorted to a dead bus close with the first unit on, or ramping if we had an AVR with the capability.
The CDVR with the excitation disable and soft start features certainly can provide a lot of possibilites, as long as it's properly done and the technicians supporting the project understand what you did.
Here is the key, at least in my opinion, understanding what the real load dynamic is on site. Inrush of a transformer is not a repeatable event, depending on the residual in the core, the installed system, such as cabling, static loads, and the types of loads and disconnect means you have in the distribution all impact how well your generator(s) will pickup the initial inrush and stay on line. Larger systems with MV distribution may also have issues with electrical protections, especially differential protections if not properly restrained and set.
Systems with a GSU at each unit and multiple step down transformers in a system can be especially challenging if a load shed system is not in use.
In general, if you have transformers to pickup in your system, make sure you have a quality three sensing AVR and a PM excitaiton system. My own expereince with AREP systems is mixed, I find they perform better than an SE system but not quite as well as most PM system, however I have recently found PM systems on CAT and other machines I find marginal in providing the needed VA to the AVR to allow a full field forcing condition. An SE machine with series boost is slightly better than SE alone, but at that point you may as well have gone with a PM.
A digital regualtor gives you more flexibility, as I mentioned before, ability to set cut off frequency, volts per hertz slope, soft start and PID tuning can give the ability to make a system work where an analog AVR won't.
Great topic, enjoyed the discussion!
Mike L.
Re: Gensets & Transforme rs
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09-20-2011 03:17 AM
Good topic and good suggestion.
It really help me understand the problem.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Good Luck!

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