10-21-2008 01:16 PM
Hello Cat Community,
Hopefully somebody from Cat Engineering, marketing, international group or others can give me a definative reply to this problem.
We are specifying a new diesel powered container crane for a client. Usually the total procurement cycle for a container crane is about 18 to 24 months from order date to final acceptance at the customer's facility. Today, we are not sure about the engineering details of such a set as it has yet to be designed by the OEM cranebuilder. These cranes are specified to be completely manufactured, assembled and some testing performed at a factory at an unknown foreign location, likely in Asia, South America, or Europe. The completed crane(s) will be shipped fully erected to the client. Diesel generator power is specified, 13.8 KV class tier 4 compliant and low noise (as this will likely be required by the time the cranes are put into service or very shortly thereafter). The OEM order date will likely be 1st or 2nd quarter 2009. Prime power rating for the genset will likely be between 1600 and 2400 KW; depending on options chosen and negotated during the bidding process. Preliminary engineering for the bidding process will require various OEM's to price and size the generator sets after the crane mechanical and electrical drive system sizing is done but before the final bid evaluation is performed.
Since tier 4 is unique to the USA, how can one ensure the quotations made by dealers in possibly China, Korea, Brazil, Argentina, Finland, Spain, UK, maybe Japan, maybe Indonesia, and possibly eleswhere will be specification compliant for this client?
In year's past, Cat had a limited number of Power Generation specality dealers who could package sets for unique marine environment and industry requirements, but this appears to no longer be true.
I see a potential for a difficult job on the horizon. Any suggestions? The client will not supply any material for the crane, it is to be a product on one responsible contractor.
10-22-2008 02:43 PM
I am a Product & Application Consultant with Caterpillar. You pose an interesting question, and I will need to do some research on this and get back to you.
Product & Application Consultant
10-22-2008 03:20 PM
10-23-2008 12:20 AM
Thank you Au342 and doziece;
Perhaps I was not completely clear. The crane will likely be put in to service ( IE title will transfer only upon final acceptance) not sooner in late 2011; and it is probable that title will not transfer until later; our experience with many other jobs indicates it more likely to be in be 2012 mid year. Title transfer is a key in this business, because that is usually when the crane is deemed to be complete and accepted by the owner and only then will the tenants be permitted to put it in to commercial service. I have not a clue how the Feds define " in service". Since there is more than one crane involved and they will be built and delivered possibly many months to a year or more apart; we have a concern on this issue as the client wants all equipment on this order to be identical.
I am not privy to all of the procurement terms from this public entity, and that is one reason I made the posting as we cannot identify a date certain for many months into the procurement; and we want to avoid change orders on this issue. Since the date the crane will become property of the Port and then legally will be "in service" is additionally uncertain, we do think the prudent position to specify tier 4; either interim or final; ultimately that issue must be determined by the contractor and the genset supplier.
I am pleased for your inputs, because the EPA was of no help on this issue, and because this issue (other than for Southern California Ports)appears uncertain to us.
That said discussioins with the clients will continue.
Thanks for the inputs all;
11-24-2008 10:23 AM
12-03-2008 04:48 PM
Tier 2 and tier 4 relate to diesel engine emission standards established by the US EPA, specifically for my interest those adopted in June of 2004. Standards are to be phased in over a time period, becoming more demanding with time. There is also related rules on phasing in low sulphur diesel fuel, and separate rules for on-highway vehicles.
There are different levels of attainment required for all non-road diesel engines, with more stringent standards required for larger generator sets than for smaller units. The bible sized document on the regulations is at http://www.epa.gov/nonroad-diesel/2004fr.htm#pream
12-10-2008 01:28 PM
Here is the link to the white paper:
I've also found this site to be useful:
This info is specific to EU:
01-29-2009 11:28 AM
One of the biggest issue is how Tier 4 will impact stationary power generation. As mentioned before diesel engines built on or after the Jan '11 date and apparently above 175 HP will require Nox after treatment. I have frim quotes for equipment from several manufacturers that show a 100.00usd per Kw in capitol cost and a 1.25 usd perMWh in O&M cost. Both Cat and Wartsila are even specing SCR on SG ICE units........Although when pushed indicate the unit will run under Tier 4 Nox limits. Another very concerning aspect of Tier 4 is the paragraph that states if any repair or modifcation exceeds 50%of replacement cost the repaired unit must meet the new requirement....
03-24-2009 07:43 AM
My first recommendation to you is to contact a US based equipment dealer. I cannot speak for any of Caterpillar's competitors, but I do know that US based dealers will often work with our international dealers for projects that are constructed abroad. Here is the link to locate a Caterpillar dealer: http://www.cat.com/dealer-locator. Make sure the local US Caterpillar dealer knows where the bids are going, and they can work with the Caterpillar dealers in the country where the quotations are being developed. This should help to ensure that the proper equipment is specified and quoted.
There are also a number of additional items to consider:
1. Know where the final cranes are going to be installed. Think of the EPA Tier requirements as a starting point for emissions. Ultimately, site emissions will be regulated by the local air boards, which may drive your project to require an SCR system to further lower emissions below the EPA levels. This is common in non-attainment zones, and areas like California and the North East US, where some form of aftertreatment is installed on most projects.
2. There is typically a 2 year period after a Tier level comes into effect until the unit must be "installed"... but, the EPA does not currently have a good definition of installed. See related post for some more information on installed:
3. You mentioned that there are additional cranes... which could be up to a year apart. Based on the timing, these units will probably require Tier 4 generator sets. You may want to consider specifying an SCR system on this first round of cranes, since your client is looking for all units to be the same. This will do a couple of things for you. The first is that local emissions permitting will be easier, since the SCR system will reduce the emissions. The second is that your client will become familiar with the SCR technology with the first crane, and will maintain some level of commonality between the first unit and subsequent units... but, be aware that a manufacture supplied Tier 4 genset will not be 100% identical to a Tier 2 generator set and aftertreatment.
4. Right now, I am unaware of any generator set manufacturer that has a Tier 4 certified generator set available in the power range you are looking for. From a Caterpillar standpoint, Tier 4 generator sets are being developed, but may or may not be available for this first project, depending on when the generator set will be ordered. Again, your local Caterpillar dealer can help with the specifics of product availability.
Hope this helps.
Product & Application Consultant